TheByte

Harry Plopper

I guess you also like circus freaks as well.
Same species as the above mentioned "gentlemen".
And I'm not referring to sapiens sapiens.
Gosh! Bush isn't capable to articulating properly. Nor is Sarkozy. Every time they speak they look like they were retarded. Isn't that the worst PR ever for the country - having a president who looks like a retarded person. With an articulation of a drunk (or at least very common) man.


C'mon ... How can you guys (and girl) defend such clumsy (I can not find gentler word) politicians as eg. Bush, or Sarkozy. First class entertainers, but lousy politicians.

Eg. Sarkozy wants to create a para-union within the EU (= a Mediterranean Union) - ie. creating his own playground where he (and Italian PM Berlusconi) could dominate.

All these guys can do is damage. Sooner they are gone better for the world.



(PS: mind my perspective is global (international policy POW) - since I'm not aware of certain internal affairs, and the deeds of the national leader within their respective states).



@ CarDiva:

Nice to hear you are enjoying your day ... But I still think you are oversensitive regarding specific issue. To balance my anti-Bush statements: McCain is a senile Zombie, Obama is a snob, Hillary is an old fat bitch. Who ever wins you're doomed, CD. As you can see all the candidates have their flaws. So be prepared ... they will be criticized as well.

Viva la freedom of speech.

Rob

^ well Tine, you must remember that these politicians are also real people ...it is the easiest thing in the world to find their faults. I really wonder who would want to be a politician.

Harry Plopper

Me too. I guess it's something very pathological about desire of becoming a politician of highest rank.

Most of them think they are "chosen", "called on duty", "are needed", "can contribute", "have best solutions" etc.

Pure megalomania, I think.



PS: what are "real people"? Of flesh & blood you mean? Only humans? Yes, indeed they are. Therefore any special treatment & immunity is unnecessary.


PPS: working with the government and the employees there I can assure you most of the highest ranking politicians (eg. ministers) are such BS-ers with overblown egos ... The only sane in the system are usually the lower ranking officials - who are way more professional. The higher-ranked ones are often blinded by the spotlight ... starting to act like pop-stars.

The Diva

Looks like now I touched a sensitive issue for you.

Nope, not doomed, and I interpret you are referring to upcoming of criticism on the new leader, I can chose not to read your posts

Since I presume someone will have to be the last one to bark back , and , it will not be me (I'm done with this thread)... happy trails to you

Viva la freedom of choosing what I want to (and not want to) read

And now back to the pool.

Choleric

Eni I never said that was what I want in a leader or a reason I would like him, I just stated that he is the type of guy that I wouldn't mind sitting down and pounding a few back with. Never said that to qualify him as a good leader.


Also, this is completely separate from Bush but, there is often so much more to being a good leader than simply intelligence, experience or refinement. Sometimes it is the intangibles that matter, just having a clean cut, ivy league, intellectual politician at the head of state does not always make for a good leader.

Rob

I think this is something which makes Americans (US) different from most other nations in the world. Even if they didn't vote for the man and do not agree with his policies, they always respect the position. To Americans, the President is not just a political leader, he is also a symbol of the Union. The US is such an huge and diverse nation ....united by symbolism like the flag, The Declaration of Independence, the anthem, and President. I think it is important for those of us who do not live in the US to appreciate this aspect of American life. I very much appreciate Car Diva and Choleric's perspective on this. It is admirable that Jeff would like to have a drink with Bush, even if he would never vote for him.

Choleric

It's nice to hear from you Rob, Haven't talked with you in quite some time.

As to what you said, yes thats exactly right. Reminds me of my best friend, who is about as conservative as you get (devout Roman catholic, gets angry when he sees gay people, pissed off if someone even says abortion, etc...) and I am athiest and about as socially liberal as possible before socialism. Yet we are practically brothers.

Harry Plopper

Sounds right.

So, Americans - as diverse as they are - desperately need symbols (eg. flag, anthem, the President, etc.) as a binding material. Things which connects them ... Making them a nation. Symbols as the ultimate common denominator.

While eg. European nations are connected via (cultural) heritage, language, culture, nationality, religion ... Since most of the countries are still quite homogeneous.



*****

@ CarDiva

I respect you decision very much. So I'll stop bothering you.

Choleric

I do not know if you are trying to be but that statement has a very pretentious tone to it.

...and Americans are connected via Language, nationality and religion just as much as any European country, granted there isn't the same long standing cultural and historical homogeneity to rally around.

Harry Plopper

It was not my intent to be pretentious.
Mind English is not my native language so my diction / articulation as sometimes (too) simple & direct.

I was just trying to point out USA are very heterogeneous country - their inhabitants are in vast majority (social) immigrants & their successors. And those immigrants have come from all over the world - bringing their native language, culture, religion, habits to the States. So, there you have a great mix of nationalities, cultures, habits, religions etc. in the USA.

Also an important fact: USA were British colony. And could even happen they ended up being eg. French, Spanish or Dutch colony. But, OK - the Brits were the winners in that game.

So, there you have it (after independence war) - an independent country with very heterogeneous population. So, what is needed is a special bond - which came in form / symbol of God, state national symbols, and the President. And today the situation is even more heterogeneous.

So, to bridge all the differences "brainwashing" was needed - putting patriotism in the first place. Being American comes first. Otherwise there would be a chaos.

I'm familiar with this method: once Slovenia being a part of Yugoslavia (also a bunch of different nations & religions) we were feed with that value of "Bratstvo i jedinstvo" (= Brotherhood & unity). So, this slogan (value), and the president (popular dictator) Tito were the bonds which glued us together. And the state symbols of course.
That's the method used in every heterogeneous country (being that a federation or confederation). Even in EU they are trying to feed us with special European features ... eg. now we have a EU flag. EU anthem, EU standards / legislation. But these are still very loose / weak bonds.

I just wanted to say - like MikeJ also pointed out - most of nations here in Europe are less connected with their patriotic feelings, authorities, religion, state symbols etc.
I guess it has something to do with the history - mind the WWI & WWII (and many other wars before) devastated entire Europe. And people are willing to sacrifice their national (or religious) pride for the sake of peace (and other common well).

Just like today eg. US people are willing to sacrifice their freedom / rights for the sake of more security.

It's not about who is "better", or who is "above".
But due different historical experience the POW & habits are different.

And I completely understand why patriotism, national pride, state symbols, the God, & the President are so important for the existence of the USA. I just wish people to have more distance & be less sensitive. Because being too sensitive means your feeling can be hurt quite quickly. And when that happens the reaction is often aggression / hostility of some kind. And can lead to bad stuff.





So, don't be offended if someone says your president is a moron, your nation is stupid, your country sucks etc.
If you are confident in your nation, country, president etc then all the criticism shouldn't hurt you. It can only help to reflect & evaluate - if needed.
But in the case people are not confident about above mentioned things, when you are in fear for your values ... then I guess the (over)sensitivity appears.

But that's not the problem for me to resolve. It's a personal problem of each individual.

Cheers.