TheByte

Gullwing

Interesting.

I listen to Radio 1 and hear them talk about the problems with their health care and what the government tells the people.
If I was having a baby I would still rather pay to have it born in a hospital just in case something went wrong, rather then having it at home with a mid wife like the British government wants people to do.
Plus the number of Canadians that come down to the US for surgery because they are told it is not life threatening enough to be done at this time.

Prescription prices in the US are expensive. I personally have prescription bills that run probably close to $6000 a year, last year I got a new $11,000 insulin pump. Right now I have insurance, but that will run out soon.
But what country comes up with most of the cures? Hi prices allow companies to do research to come up with new cures. Necessary evil.

Granted yes it would be great to have all medical care done for free, but I don't think everything would be top notch.

Sorry I can't force myself to believe anything Michael Moore says.

The Artist

I dont know what Radio 1 is about..Im from sweden..
And i was born in a hospital where you dont pay.. and most ppl i know ..
I guess we are all here living..
In sweden you give birth in hospitals i dont know what the UK gov want their ppl to do..
About the canadians.. i have no clue why they come to the US.. i wouldnt..

And as a long time friend or a person who has online contact with you, i feel sick when i hear that you pay those ammounts of cash for your health service. It makes me sad

About the necessary evil, well i guess the price that a company charges for its drugs are basically the same all over the world.
The diffrence is that in the US the citizen pay for it, here the gov pays for it..
They still get their cash in the end..
Or actually even in sweden the citizens pay for it, but its a part of our tax system..

And about it not being top notch when its free.. well i guess your wrong..
Cause German and French medical care ( even swedish) is conciderd the most highly skilled..
And why wouldnt it be, our doctors get as much or even better paid than yours..
So it does not compromize their work
And the drug companys get their money.. from us as they get from you..
So i do not get this reasoning of why it would not be top notch

What i think is that when you have to pay for everything and dont have enough to pay..
Thats when compromises raises..
And since we dont have that problem over here..
Im kind of calm..

Gullwing

Radio 1 is British or just better then my local stations.

What I gather is the UK wants more and more people to give birth at home instead of at the hospital.

They get help from a mid wife to deliver, but that is about it. Not 100%.
Canadians come to the US for surgeries that the government says they don't really need right now, but will need in a few months/years. And for optional procedures.

Right now I have insurance to cover my prescriptions, but I think at the end of the year I wont. I have learned over the years to make my meds last a lot longer then they “should”. Deductibles are still several hundred a year.

In Canada they give out generic meds which are a lot cheaper and do not go to cover the cost of developing new ones. So that money never gets paid.

I don’t think US government run health care would be “top notch” Too much politics would be involved and too many short cuts would be taken.

But then Obama has said he wants to “Tax the heck out of America” so if we have to pay 60+% taxes we better damn well get a lot in return.

Alfie

I'm with Artist 100%. With the new government the Swedish health care system has gotten more expensive but yet it's still damn good. And I could never imagine of having a privatized health care system. If we had, I wouldn't be as sane as I am. Nor would my mom be able to work.

Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the world, and our new government is lowering them, and do I like it? Hell no! Sure, it's a bummer to see how much tax you pay when you get your salary specification but it really is worth every penny. And every single Swede I know who's lived abroad has told me to be grateful for our system. Some have even been to America and say the same thing.
If I was an American and Obama said that he wants tax the shit out of me, I'd say "Thank you sir!".

Naturally the rich won't like it as much.

Mikael

The race has turned into an exchange of personal attacks, once again...
I hoped it would be a clean and fair battle with the emphasis on issues but looks like this was inevitable...


Obama's counter-attacks:

I have to say McCain's memory problem about how many houses he owns was funny.

Gullwing

Yes McCain and his wife do have a lot of homes, his wife is rich. It wasn't so much he didn't know, just he didn't want to comment at that time.
But then Obama last year made over $4 million and just bought a million dollar house with finacial help from a fellon.
Neither one is going to the poor house anytime soon.

Fun facts!

Obama's Not Exactly's:

1.) Selma Got Me Born - NOT EXACTLY, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google 'Obama Selma' for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various untruths.)

2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - NOT EXACTLY, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went o n to work with the Kenyan Government.

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - NOT EXACTLY, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - NOT EXACTLY, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya. It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga's follower. You interrupted your New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone. Check out the following link for verification of that....and for more.
Obama's cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned Christians' homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter.. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants to know the truth.

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - NOT EXACTLY, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5am according to her own interv iews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn't allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - NOT EXACTLY, your name is Arabic and 'Baraka' (from which Barack came) means 'blessed' in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.
Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother's side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro from his father's side. While Barack Hussein Obama's father was from Kenya, his father's family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein Obama's father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father's birth certificate even states he's Arab, not African Negro). From....and for more....go to.....
http://www.arcadeathome.com/newsboyp....25%25_African

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - NOT EXACTLY, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years, until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.
4-3-08 Article 'Obama was 'quite religious in islam'' Obama was 'quite religious in Islam'

8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - NOT EXACTLY, you were registered as Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).
February 28, 2008. Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago: Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of theArabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it'll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as 'one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.' This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says 'Obama's narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts.'

9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - NOT EXACTLY, not one teacher says you could speak the language.

10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia, I Have More Foreign Experience - NOT EXACTLY, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn't even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons.

11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - NOT EXACTLY, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle Ea st(bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - N OT EXACTLY, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.

13.)An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - NOT EXACTLY, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn't, and never did, exist.

14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - NOT EXACTLY, Life has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn't, and never did, exist.

15.) I Won't Run On A National Ticket In '08 - NOT EXACTLY, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.

16.) Voting 'Present' is Common In Illinois Senate - NOT EXACTLY, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.

17.) Oops, I Misvoted - NOT EXACTLY, only when caught by church groups and Democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - NOT EXACTLY, you were a senior lecturer -ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - NOT EXACTLY, you were a senior lecturer -ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - NOT EXACTLY, you didn't write it, introduce it, change it, or create it.

21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - NOT EXACTLY, it took just 14 days from start to finish.

22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - NOT EXACTLY, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - NOT EXACTLY, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - NOT EXACTLY, you were part of a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens. You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - NOT EXACTLY, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - NOT EXACTLY, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.

27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - NOT EXACTLY, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.

28.) No One on my campaign contacted Canada about NAFTA - NOT EXACTLY, the Candian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - NOT EXACTLY, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel.

30.) I Want All Votes To Count - NOT EXACTLY, you said let the delegates decide.

31.) I Want Americans To Decide - NOT EXACTLY, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

32.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - NOT EXACTLY, you passed 26, most of which you didn't write yourself.

33.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - NOT EXACTLY, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

34.) I Don't Take PAC Money - NOT EXACTLY, you take loads of it.

35.) I don't Have Lobbysists - NOT EXACTLY, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.

36.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - NOT EXACTLY, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.

37.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - NOT EXACTLY, you weren't in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time.

38.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - NOT EXACTLY, your plan leaves us all to pay for the 15,000,000 who don't have to buy it.



'Qui non intelligit aut discat aut taceat'
Who does not understand should either learn, or be silent.

Mikael

LOL looks like one of those emails with dubious "facts".

Scroll down to the lower part of the page: snopes.com: Obama's 50 Lies

Both sides are making claims that are not exactly true: FactCheck.org


There are a lot of lists about the candidates spreading on the net. Here's a list of McCain's flip-flops for example:

Signing of the GI Bill: Now enthusiastically for it... after it passed. Previously attacked the Webb Bill. Didn't even bother to vote on it.
http://bravenewfilms.org/...

Campaign reform: On political reform, McCain last January opposed a grassroots lobbying bill he once supported. In 2006, the "New York Sun" reported that his presidential ambitions led McCain to reverse his support of a campaign financial bill called McCain/Feingold.
http://www.nysun.com/...

Alien Minors Act/Immigration: Last October he said he would vote against the development, relief and education for Alien Miners Act that he co-sponsored, and then said he would vote against an immigration bill that he introduced.
http://www.youtube.com/...

Gay Marriage: In 2006, he said on "HARDBALL," quote, I think that gay marriage should be allowed. Then after the commercial break he added, I do not believe that gay marriages should be legal.
http://www.youtube.com/...

Abortion: On abortion, 1999, publicly supporting Roe v. Wade, privately opposing it in a letter to the National Right to Life Committee. In the 2000 debates, he would change the GOP platform to permit exceptions for rape, incest, the life of the mother. May 2007, "flipped", ABCNews.com reported.
http://abcnews.go.com/...

Nuclear Waste: No Storing Nuclear waste at Yucca mountain earlier..now flipped
http://www.lasvegassun.com/...

Negotiating with Kim Jong-Il: Negotiating with Kim Jong-Il not acceptable until President Bush did it last week.
http://bondibox.newsvine.com/...

Negotiating with Cuba/Castro: With Fidel Castro acceptable in 2000, not 2008.
http://vids.myspace.com/...

Negotiating with Hamas/Terrorists: ...with terrorists appropriate when Colin Powell went to Syria and in 2006 when McCain said sooner or later we‘ll talk to Hamas, but not appropriate now re: Obama's willingness to use diplomacy.
http://bondibox.newsvine.com/...

Pakistan: Unilateral action against suspected terrorists in Pakistan; "Confused leadership" when Obama suggested it, not when Bush did it.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/...

Warrantless Wire-taps: Six months ago, presidents had to obey the law, not anymore.
http://www.nytimes.com/...

Torture: Torture detainees, no way, except for the CIA. Hold them indefinitely, wrong in 2003, the right move in 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/...

Iraq War: The Iraq war, the right course 2004, stay the course 2005. Today, McCain has always been a Rumsfeld critic.
http://thinkprogress.org/...


Tax Cuts: In 2001, he could not in good conscious support them. Now he can.
http://www.youtube.com/...


Estate Tax: 2006, "I agree with President Roosevelt who created it". In 2008, "most unfair".
http://www.crooksandliars.com/...


Privatizing Social Security: This month not for privatizing Social Security, never has been. In 2004, he "didn‘t see how benefits will last without it".
http://www.youtube.com/...


Balanced Budget: In February, promised a balanced budget in four years by April, make that eight years.
http://www.perrspectives.com/...


Windfall Profits Tax: In May, glad to look at the windfall profits tax. By June, that was Jimmy Carter's big idea.
http://flipfloptracker.blogspot.com/...


Offshore Drilling: In 2000, no new off shore drilling. Last month, it would take years to develop. This month, very helpful in the short term.
http://thinkprogress.org/...


Coyotes..Bush Big Time Fund Raisers: The Bush fund-raisers McCain called coyotes breaking the law in 2000. By 2006, they were co-chairing McCain fund-raisers.
http://abcnews.go.com/...


"Agents of Intolerance": Buddy Jerry Falwell...an "agent of intolerance in 2000". Kissed Falwell's ass in 2007... The Reverend Hagee and Parsley in, then out this year alone.
http://www.youtube.com/...


Martin Luther King Holiday: In 1983, opposed Martin Luther King Day. Today, all for it.
http://www.boston.com/...


Confederate Flag: In 2000, defended South Carolina's confederate flag as a symbol of heritage. Two years later, McCain calling it, quote, an act of political cowardice not to say the flag should come down. Quote, "everybody said, look out. You can't win in South Carolina if you say that."
http://www.youtube.com/...


Evolution in Public Schools: In 2005, McCain said alternatives to evolution should be taught in school. "Evolving" the opposite position he had taken in 2000.
http://thinkprogress.org/...


Restoring the Everglades: On June 5, John McCain traveled to the Everglades to win over Floridians and environmentally-minded voters. There he proclaimed, "I am in favor of doing whatever’s necessary to save the Everglades." Sadly, as ThinkProgress documented, McCain not only opposed $2 billion in funding for the restoration of the Everglades national park, he backed President Bush’s veto of the legislation in 2007. "I believe," he said, "that we should be passing a bill that will authorize legitimate, needed projects without sacrificing fiscal responsibility."
Crooks and Liars


Swiftboating: McCain's sudden embrace of Swiftboating --- which today is synonymous with a concerted effort to lie about an opponent's history --- is all the more deplorable because he has hired retired Col. George "Bud" Day, a proud member of the group that Swiftboated Kerry --- and someone McCain once described as having "tunnel vision" --- to lead what McCain is calling his "Truth Squad."
http://digg.com/...


GITMO/Habeus Corpus: Despite John McCain's outrage last week that the Supreme Court ordered Gitmo detainees know why they were being held, or released -- Political Base has stumbled upon a McCain appearance on Meet the Press in 2005 where he argued they deserved trials, going so far as to say "if it means releasing some of them, you'll have to release them." Shameless.
http://www.politicalbase.com/...


Divestment from South Africa: During his June 2 speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), John McCain called for the international community to target Iran for the kind of worldwide sanctions regime applied to apartheid-era South Africa. Unfortunately, McCain’s lobbyist-advisers Charlie Black and Rick Davis each represented firms doing business with Tehran. Even more unfortunate, John McCain was frequently not among those offering "moral clarity and conviction" in backing "a divestment campaign against South Africa, helping to rid that nation of the evil of apartheid."
http://thinkprogress.org/...


Opposing Hurricane Katrina Investigations: During a June 4th town hall meeting in Baton Rouge, John McCain answered a reporter’s question regarding Hurricane Katrina and the failure of the New Orleans levees by announcing:
"I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy. I’ve been here to New Orleans. I’ve met with people on the ground."
As it turns out, not so much. McCain’s revisionist history neglects to mention that in 2005 and 2006 he twice voted against a commission to study the government’s response to Katrina. He also opposed three separate emergency funding measures providing relief to Katrina victims, including the extension of five months of Medicaid benefits. And as ThinkProgress pointed out, "until traveling there one month ago, McCain had made just one public tour of New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina touched down in August 2005."
http://thinkprogress.org/...


McCain On His Economic Abilities: "I have not. I have not. Actually, I have not." "I said that I am stronger on national security issues because of all the time I spent in the military and others. I am very strong on the economy. I understand it. I have a lot more experience than my opponent."
-- Sen. John McCain, in an interview on ABC News, when asked why he "admitted that you're not exactly an expert when it comes to the economy."
However, NBC News compiles past McCain quotes in which he said "The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should" or "I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/...


On Criticizing Obama While "Overseas": Traveling in Colombia, he told reporters that he wouldn't criticize Obama while he was overseas, but on the plane, he blasted Obama’s opposition to the proposed Colombia free trade...
http://blogs.abcnews.com/...


UPDATES from KOSsacks:
Temperment and Temper: "My temper has often been both a matter of public speculation and personal concern," he wrote in a 2002 memoir. "I have a temper, to state the obvious, which I have tried to control with varying degrees of success because it does not always serve my interest or the public's." Not true and not under control, according to many of those on the "W"rong side of McCain's famous temper.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...


Drilling For Oil and Automobile Efficiency: "Last week, Senator McCain reversed himself and said we need to drill more. Today, he has reversed years of failing to support more efficient cars, new energy technologies and green jobs.
http://www.speaker.gov/...


Offshore Drilling: Two weeks ago, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) offered "a bit of a capitulation to the oil companies" by announcing that he would end the federal ban on offshore oil drilling. Not only is McCain’s move a break with environmental activist, but it is also "a reversal of the position he took in his 2000 presidential campaign.
http://thinkprogress.org/...


Payroll Taxes: "When he was asked in 2005 whether he could see himself lifting the cap on the payroll tax, (McCain) said, 'I could.' Two years later, during a May 13, 2007, appearance on "Meet the Press," Russert asked McCain if he was still open to lifting the Social Security tax cap as part of a compromise. "Am I opposed to tax increases?" said McCain. "Yes. But we've got to sit down together and figure out what our options are, and tough decisions have to be made, Republicans and Democrats. And I know how to do that." Asked about the 2005 remark, a McCain spokesman acknowledged the tension with his current position while arguing that the Arizona senator's criticism of his Democratic rival is still valid because McCain has spoken out against higher Social Security taxes as a 2008 White House hopeful.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/...


Ethics Reform and Abramoff: On the stump, Sen. John McCain often cites his work tackling the excesses of disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff as evidence of his sturdy ethical compass. A little-known document, however, shows that McCain may have taken steps to protect his Republican colleagues from the scope of his investigation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
http://digg.com/...

Mikael

Here is an interesting piece of news to supplement the health care discussion above.


Uninsured Get Less Health Care Than Insured



Monday, August 25, 2008; 12:00 AM

MONDAY, Aug. 25 (HealthDay News) -- Uninsured Americans will spend $30 billion out of pocket for health care, and receive $56 billion in uncompensated care in 2008, new research shows.

Uncompensated care is defined as health care that is received but not paid for by the uninsured or a health insurer.

In a report appearing in Monday's online edition ofHealth Affairs, Jack Hadley, of George Mason University, and John Holahan, Teresa Coughlin and Dawn Miller, of the Urban Institute, analyzed data on medical spending in people who are insured versus those who are uninsured.

They found that people uninsured for any part of 2008 receive about half as much care as those who are fully insured. A person who is uninsured all year will average $1,686 in medical costs, while someone who is privately insured will average $3,915.

And, the researchers pointed out, the uninsured pay an average of $583 (35 percent) of their costs, while the insured pay an average of $681 (17 percent).

"The uninsured receive a lot less care than the insured, and they pay a greater percentage of it out of pocket. Contrary to popular myth, they are not all free riders," study author Hadley, a senior health services researcher at George Mason, said in a news release from the journal.

The researchers also estimated that the federal government pays for about three-quarters ($43 billion) of the uncompensated care bill, including roughly $18 billion in special payments to hospitals by Medicare and Medicaid; $15 billion in tax appropriations and indigent care programs by state and local governments; and almost $10 billion in spending by the Veterans Health Administration, the Indian Health Service, community health centers and similar direct-care programs.

Finally, the researchers estimated that if all people uninsured for all or part of 2008 were to gain health-care coverage, the uninsured would increase their medical spending by $122.6 billion -- an amount equal to about 5 percent of current health spending.

"From society's perspective, covering the uninsured is still a good investment. Failure to act in the near term will only make it more expensive to cover the uninsured in the future, while adding to the amount of lost productivity from not insuring all Americans," Hadley said.


Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082501849.html

Mikael

Any guesses about McCain's VP pick? Pawlenty? Romney? Crist? Jindal? Palin? Or even Lieberman? Or someone else?

Gullwing

Romney or Pawlenty