TheByte

Rob

Well lets not get into a pointless debate over who is more wrong.

There are some Christians who genuinely see the middle eastern conflict as some kind of Biblical situation -- it frightens the hell out of me when religeon is used to justify acts of war.


I agree, its like putting your hand in the lion's den and then being outraged when he takes your arm off.

...but Israel reacted precisely as Hamas wanted it to -- Hamas is committed to inciting attacks by Israel because it fuels the hatred for Israel every time another Arab dies ...and the western Media goes nuts condemning Israel for "overreacting" ...which results in anti-American left-wingers (people who hate Israel mostly because it is supported by the USA) to protest in full support of the Palestinians.

True ...I totally agree ...Hezbollah is a thoroughly manipulative organization that uses the Lebanese people as a human shield but ultimately does not care about much else beyond destroying Israel.

Harry Plopper

Yes ... Sorry to say that ... But state of Israel the main cause for the unrest Middle East, and finally the cause for the clash of East vs. West (since US are eager supporters of Israel).

To explain myself: I'm not antisemitic, yet I have issues with state of Israel.

Go read the books ... How the Zionist idea arise, how the colonization of Palestine began, the role of Great Britain ... and then the horrible Holocaust, Nazis & Hitler. And the Communism with Stalin in the EE. Horrible stuff happened to the Jews.

So ... as a damages they got a State of Israel. And a strategic partnership with US - where the Jewish lobby became even more powerful after WWII after many Jews had emigrated from Europe to USA.


*****

The policy of Israel has always been nationalistic & expansionistic. Check all the expansionistic wars Israel fought with its neighbor Arab countries. And all the support (moral, diplomatic & military) Israel always got from US.

Check the causes for the uprise of the First Intifada.

And the causes & the aftermaths of the Islamic Revolution in Iran. And the rise of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq. And the US policy on Middle East. Especially before, during & after the 1973 Oil crisis.



Go ... check the books ... or at least Wikipedia.


*****

If hadn't having compassionate US support the state of Israel would be already obliterated from the Earth. Done by the Arab states. I guess US feel obligated to the Nation of David since the didn't / couldn't stop the Holocaust. Therefore such a US support to Israel.
Europe has a different agenda - to keep Israel alive, so the Jews can stay there, and do not come back to Europe. Antisemitism is still very alive in Europe - yet not expressed.


*****

Regarding "they have rights to live there since that's the land of their origin" is a bit iffy statement & a very problematic one.

Imagine every nation starts to claim they want to posses the "land of their roots". That would be devastating. Especially for Europe, Asia ... And even US can face an "Intifada" revolution by Native Americans.


*****

The "holy land of Palestine" incl. the city of Jerusalem is a sacred place for all the 3 big monotheistic religions ... It was Jewish, the Christian, Then Muslim, then Christian, and again Muslim, and now it's Jewish again. For how long?

The problem is in the "I want it all" / "It's all mine" attitude ... IMO some places there should be under the direct protectorate of UN. With some peace-keeping forces from around the world. But neither side wants that.

The Artist

^thank you for putting what i wanted to say in better writing..

Ohh and btw..USA does not feel bad for not being able to end the holocoust..
The main reason for USA to support israel is money..
And you know AMERICA LOVES MONNEEEEY..

The hunger for money is what put them in the situation they are today..

Rob

Tine, you made some good points but it still does not excuse acts of terrorism or the manipulative organizations that incite it.

Rob

Hmm, is Jewish money really so powerful in the US? ....or is this just the kind of propaganda the white supremacists like to promulgate?

Harry Plopper

Of course not. But ...

Every action has its cause ... It's important to recognize action from reaction.

Mind terrorism is "just" a very fatal & inappropriate communication tool - or even channel. It's always an answer to eternal state of being ignored & unheard due "intolerable political demands".

Therefore fighting terrorism with force is a completely wrong strategy. But that's the ultimate reaction as well: communicating the dialog & negotiations are not possible.

It's hard to distinguish right from wrong since many times things are not just black & white. Usually A LOT of gray color is present as well.

I'm absolutely against terrorism - since common innocent people are hurt. But so are in the case of eg. UN economic embargo, or in the case of UN approved military intervention. The only difference is whether civilians are the primary / official target, or not. But usually the consequences are very similar - if not even worse.

Therefore ... IMO ... use of any lethal weapons for fighting should be limited to "humanitarian interventions" - when a worldwide consensus is reached. But this is highly illusional suggestion.

Gullwing

There is little to no monitary gain by the USA from Israel. There is some trading, but not a whole lot.
We spend more money on joint military war games with them then we could get from them. What all could we gain from them, they don't have very many natural resorces and no oil.
The main thing we gain from them is buying small amounts of their small arms for special forces/swat.

Choleric

Nope they were just running around with sheets draped over them lynching Blacks, burning crosses in peoples yards, and attacking minorities.

Have to agree with you here.

I think what he was referring to, was the large amount of extremely wealthy Jews in the US who are very influential, not only in getting people elected but in most other aspects of the government. Not that the country is directly benefiting monetarily from Israel.

The Artist

Choleric said it..
I didnt mean ISRAELi money..
The jewish community is very tight..
And they are very keen on the safety of Isreal..

PS
If that isnt the case rob..and others..
Then please tell me why USA offers them help..when it puts the US in harms way?
Do they really have such good heart that they sacrifise their own for others..(read stupid)
Or is it like all other things .. MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

Rob

I don't know if it is the case or not. I only ask if the Jewish community in the USA really is as powerful as you and others suggest?

I am trying to be totally objective about this whole issue ...I am not anti or pro anybody ...I can see faults on all sides.